[00:00:00] Leah Sarna: Welcome to Getting Free. This is episode 3. Before we start, just a warning that in this episode, we’ll be talking about abuse and domestic violence. Please listen with care.

[00:00:17] Leah Sarna: Picture this— You haven’t lived with your wife for years. The relationship is over. You can’t imagine spending a day, much less a lifetime, with this woman. But you won’t give her a religious divorce. Why?

[00:00:37] Leah Sarna: Many of the people we asked offered the same answer.

[00:00:40] Amit: Your husband is definitely narcissistic.

[00:00:44] Julia: It’s been suggested to me that he was a narcissist. And when I started reading about it, I went, oh yeah. Oh yeah. How did I not know this?

[00:00:56] Esther Macner: I describe many of them as a narcissistic personality disorder.

[00:01:00] Zach Truboff: Many of the men we deal with have profoundly, serious personality disorders.

[00:01:07] Leah Sarna: But could there be another reason why some husbands won’t give their wives a divorce?  I’m  Rabbanit Leah Sarna, and from the International Beit Din, this is Getting Free

[00:01:25] Leah Sarna: So far, we’ve told the stories of women who are struggling to receive a gett. But what about the men? We wanted to hear from them directly.

We wish we could have interviewed the husbands of the women you have heard from. Unfortunately, that would have jeopardized the safety of the women whose stories we are here to tell.

So instead, we turned to the most famous advocate for gett refusal-  a man named Meir Kin.

[00:01:52] Meir Kin: I’ve been saying for a long time that today we don’t have real Agunahs.

[00:01:56] Leah Sarna: This is a recording from Meir’s Youtube channel about Jewish divorce. He’s made nearly 80 videos and has about a thousand followers. Many of our clients say their husbands look to him for advice.

[00:02:07] Meir Kin: Lately we have witnessed so-called agunah activists publicly demand from certain men to grant a gett to their wife without any consideration to the man’s point of view, the man’s halachic rights or the man’s dignity.

[00:02:24] Leah Sarna: Meir started this youtube channel because of his own experience. He and his wife Lonna got a civil divorce more than 20 years ago. He says he gave her a gett. She just needs to pick it up.

[00:02:38] Meir Kin: That a gett has been waiting for my wife for over 10 years at the Beit Din of Shaarey Mishpat In the United States where my wife and I have lived all of our lives.

[00:02:49] Leah Sarna: She says she tried to pick up the gett and it doesn’t exist. That became a problem when Meir got remarried.

[00:03:01]  Protestors: Meir Kin, give Lonna a gett.  Meir Kin, give Lonna a gett.  Meir Kin, give Lonna a gett.

[00:03:06]  Leah Sarna: Protestors stood outside his wedding ceremony. The New York Times wrote a story about him. And years later, a court in Israel stalled his mother’s burial, just to convince him to grant his wife a gett. Meir was furious.

[00:03:23]  Meir Kin: The holy city of Jerusalem is known for centuries to be strict about not leaving a dead body unburied overnight, but this rabbanut was willing to go against traditions to fulfill their evil deeds.

[00:03:42]  Leah Sarna: Despite all of this, his wife Lonna is still waiting for a gett. We wanted to understand why, and hear his side of the story. So we reached out to Meir several times for an interview. We never heard back.

[00:03:58] Leah Sarna: The closest thing we could do was watch his videos and piece together his perspective. Meir Kin says men often have a good reason for withholding a gett. He sees it as a natural response to a bad divorce.

[00:04:11]  Meir Kin: A man who feels alienated from his children, financially cornered and emotionally crushed may lash out by withholding the gett.

[00:04:20] Leah Sarna: And he says this is perfectly within his rights.

[00:04:23]  Meir Kin: Not everyone is entitled to a gett.

[00:04:26]  Leah Sarna: He also says Jewish men should avoid living in or even visiting Israel to protect their right to refuse a Get…

[00:04:33]  Meir Kin:  A couple that either marries in or lives in Israel and then undergoes a divorce could see the husband going to prison for refusing to give a gett. Nevertheless, we are still seeing many young couples moving to the state of Israel. And the man is totally oblivious to the potential danger that lies ahead of him, which is the consequence of living under the jurisdiction of Sedom and the laws of Amora.

[00:04:58] Leah Sarna: Meir Kin is a little extreme. So instead of wading through more of his content, we turned to another man who works in the Jewish divorce space.

[00:05:07]  Nathan Gettisberg: I’m Nathan Gettisburg.I have a podcast and I run a couple of projects, related to helping people and specifically men in the Orthodox Jewish community through issues related to divorce.

[00:05:17] Leah Sarna: Nathan started this project after he went through his own divorce. It was tough, and he didn’t feel like he had many resources. So now, he tries to share the information he uncovered with other men.

[00:05:29] Nathan Gettisberg: I, I want married men to listen to it and learn from the experiences of men who’ve gotten divorced or have almost gotten divorced, or who have raised children by themselves successfully. ‘Cause it’s, it’s very daunting.

[00:05:40]  Leah Sarna: So, we asked him, what’s happening with these men who refuse to give a gett? If they’re no longer living with their wives, if the marriage is really over, why won’t they give them a religious divorce?

[00:05:50] Nathan Gettisberg: Well, I think, yeah, that’s a really good question. because that’s what comes up in people’s minds. You know, they’ll hear of a case like this and they’ll say, well, you know, there’s already a civil divorce, they’re not living together. But, you know, when you talk for another minute or so, they realize like, oh, okay, I got it.

[00:06:05] Leah Sarna: Nathan says what people are missing is, divorce can be really hard on husbands.

[00:06:10] Nathan Gettisberg: Often a woman will give a man no, no realistic life. Post-divorce, the man might have sacrificed everything and as the breadwinner, he’s gonna have to work most of his day, to still pay for someone who’s not married to him for child support, for, for alimony. He’ll often lose the house because the house will go to the parent who has the children. And, overnight a man who had a home and a wife and kids and, and a car and you know is able to, enjoy, some of his earnings. Now won’t anymore.

[00:06:37] Leah Sarna: And some men would rather stay married to someone who dislikes them, someone who’s already moved on, than to let this happen.

[00:06:44] Nathan Gettisberg: then I think he has every right to say. I would like to invoke my right to remain married. I don’t have any other choice.

[00:06:51]  Leah Sarna: Notice that Nathan talks about “invoking a right” to remain married. He says that’s what makes Jewish marriage special.

[00:07:01]  Nathan Gettisberg: The reason that our marriages are on , I think in a higher level of seriousness, and have a, it’s a higher plane of holiness. It’s a much more serious undertaking is because in the back of our heads,  the man and the woman in the marriage, can both refuse to be part of a divorce ceremony. And that is the rights that Halakha gives each of them.

[00:07:21] Leah Sarna: In Jewish law, a gett can’t move forward if a husband or wife refuses to participate. We at the International Beit Din help men too. We see about 100 cases a year, and out of those cases, about five will be men whose wives are refusing to accept a gett.

[00:07:39] Nathan Gettisberg: So if a woman says to her husband,I  wanna get divorced, he could say, no, I don’t wanna get divorced. And if he says to her, I’d like to get divorced, please accept a gett she could say, no, I don’t wanna accept a gett. And then he’s stuck. He can’t remarry.

[00:07:50]  Leah Sarna: Technically, husbands can remarry, through a system where they get the permission of a hundred Rabbis. Women don’t have this option. But otherwise, yes, without that loophole, husbands are stuck too. So, to Nathan, what many call gett refusal is just the process of negotiating better terms for your divorce.

[00:08:12] Nathan Gettisberg: If I want to go off and marry someone else,  I would need to work with my spouse and make her a great deal.

[00:08:20] Leah Sarna: To Nathan, divorce is a battle.  And when a husband withholds the gett, he’s doing that to defend himself or to hold out for a better deal.

[00:08:28] Nathan Gettisberg: This is kind of like a negotiation or, or game theory type of situation. I would say, look, you’re right to insist on your rights. There’s all kinds of situations where we just tell the victim that they should just give in. and I don’t think that’s necessarily the right thing.

[00:08:47] Leah Sarna:  Nathan says, it used to be that if someone was an Agunah, it was an extreme case. . A husband was missing as a hostage, he was abusive, or he entered into the marriage so that he could extort the wife’s family.

[00:09:02] Nathan Gettisberg: But now, I mean, people hear about agunahs all the time, and on social media, there’s so many people claiming that they’re in agunah. And when you dig into the details, there’s a custody fight going on. It is a fight over money. It’s not quite a case where she’s actually trapped and, and has, no option.

[00:09:19] Leah Sarna: Nathan says if a woman claims  her husband “isolated her from her friends” or “controlled her actions” that’s not enough to prove she’s experienced abuse. And he feels the simple act of withholding a gett isn’t abuse either.

[00:09:35] Nathan Gettisberg: So when you say that it is a function of abuse and it proves that this person is an abuser. That just inflames the situation even more for very obvious reasons, because it makes that person into a villain. It gives the other party, the other spouse ammunition to go even further. And now that spouse can now claim abuse when there wasn’t. Because you know he or she can, say, look, they’re refusing the gett so that proves that they’re abusive and it proves my other abuse claims, and therefore they shouldn’t even get custody of the children, even though they could be a great parent. And it has absolutely nothing to do with the children whatsoever.

[00:10:09] Leah Sarna: This is where we disagree. In 2021, the international beit din hired outside researchers to do a systemic review of more than 100 of our clients. They found that all but one described circumstances that met the definition of coercive control–where a spouse uses intimidation, isolation, and control.

[00:10:36] Leah Sarna: We continue to see this today. Here’s Rabbi Barry Dolinger, the executive director of the International Beit Din-

[00:10:43] Barry Dolinger: We’ve had approximately 385 clients over the years, those clients are survivors of horrific domestic abuse during their marriage.

[00:10:51] Leah Sarna: When the researchers took their findings to other groups that work on this issue, those groups said they see the exact same thing.

[00:10:59] Barry Dolinger: And so this is not an end of marriage problem. This is a during marriage problem that continues even after women have finally escaped abusive husbands but alas, there’s one more chance at abuse.

[00:11:41] Leah Sarna: But let’s talk about cases that don’t come to us. Is it possible that refusing to give a gett, or refusing to accept one, could be a natural part of divorce negotiations?

[00:11:24] Shel Bassel: Personally, I have been divorced twice. I’m not happy to say, but this is the reality of it.

[00:11:31] Leah Sarna: Shel Bassel is a Jewish scribe. He’s witnessed hundreds of Jewish divorces, including his own, because he writes the actual text of the gett that  a husband gives to his wife.

[00:11:42] Shel Bassel: The first time I was divorced, it was very difficult for a lot of reasons, it was very deeply emotional.

[00:11:48] Leah Sarna: Shel knows that dividing up resources and figuring out custody arrangements with an ex can be hard…

[00:11:54] Shel Bassel: All of those things are extremely important. They should all be taken care of. They all need to be worked out.

[00:12:01] Leah Sarna: But the gett is not the tool for making these arrangements.

[00:12:04] Shel Bassel: Just as the man should never withhold the gett from his, from the wife. The wife should never refuse to accept the gett. If they have come to a point where they’re going to divorce or they’re already divorced, then this is not something that you play with. This is not something that either side should be using as some kind of a power play.

[00:12:30] Leah Sarna: Shel is right. Here’s Rabbi Barry Dolinger, again

[00:12:33] Barry Dolinger: Jewish law broadly does not permit conditioning the gett. It does not permit holding up the gett for years. Classic rabbinic teachings and legal rulings absolutely forbid this. Rabbis are supposed to order the gett unconditionally in Jewish law. So what they’re doing isn’t the religious way to do it.

[00:12:54] Leah Sarna: To illustrate Rabbi Dolinger’s point, I want to share with you some of the forceful language that Rabbi Yosef Eliyahu Henkin wrote on this topic. Rabbi Henkin was one of the most important Jewish jurisprudential voices in America in the twentieth century. Here’s what he wrote:

U’mi shehu me’akev hagett…Anyone who withholds a divorce, demanding money without legal justification, is considered a thief, and worse than that, he is engaging in an act akin to murder. Even if the wife is rebellious towards her husband, if efforts have been made to reconcile and they have not succeeded, and a year has passed, it is a commandment for him to divorce her– for the daughters of Israel are not captives to be married against their will!

[00:13:50]Leah Sarna: Based on rulings like Rabbi Henkin’s,  Joseph Weiler, NYU law professor and one of the International Beit Din’s founders, points out that gett refusal is, at its core, someone defying Jewish law.

[00:14:03]  Joseph Weiler: When a recalcitrant husband refuses to give a gett, it’s not only outrageous vis-a-vis the wife, it’s outrageous vis-a-vis rabbinical courts, he’s defying a court. He’s not only, excuse me, a son of a bitch when it comes to his wife, he is defying a decision of rabbinical court.

[00:14:28] Leah Sarna: Plus, it doesn’t make a lot of sense. Here’s Anna Cable, a social worker and one of our intake specialists at the International Beit Din.

[00:14:36] Anna Cable: There’s no realistic person who would think, well, I’m civilly divorced, in a court of law in the country I live in. But I think there’s a chance we could reconcile. That’s not sane. If that person thinks that, they’re probably not ready for an adult relationship.

[00:14:55] Leah Sarna: These husbands are abusive, but that doesn’t mean we can’t work with them, and in fact we do, every single day.

[00:15:03] Barry Dolinger: People excuse the men, they presume that they have to give in to the men, and no one ever firmly but compassionately says you’re better than that.

[00:15:14] Leah Sarna: Rabbi Barry Dolinger has a lot of these conversations.

[00:15:17] Barry Dolinger: I spoke to a husband and I heard he was very angry and I said, you know, in your own self interest, Right? Wallowing in self pity and anger and revenge isn’t going to serve you long term.

You know, I can hear your anger. I can hear the revenge in your voice. And this is not going to be good for your wife. It’s also not good for you. And so in your own self interest, you should give a gett and allow both parties, you and her, to move on. Because you’re just as sucked into being an abuser as she is a victim of your abuse. And he said, you’re right, you’re right, I don’t know how to walk back from the anger and the ledge I’ve kind of walked myself onto, and I don’t have an out. I can’t bring myself to give in and to compromise, even though I know it would be wiser.

[00:16:23] Leah Sarna: Somewhere along the way, a lot of Jewish men, not just Nathan, and not just Meir Kin, got the idea that holding onto the gett to gain something out of the divorce was ok.

[00:16:34] Barry Dolinger: The current establishment, acts in a, in a manner that’s totally outside of classic Jewish law in encouraging or affording men the possibility that they’ll do this.

[00:16:43] Leah Sarna: Men are often encouraged by rabbis, or by people like Meir Kin to withhold a gett. And at the same time, many people have accepted this, even if they don’t encourage it. They say this is just how it is. Women should give in to extortion in order to get their freedom.

But why? Where did this idea come from? If Jewish law is clear, and husbands can’t use the gett to negotiate a better divorce agreement, why does this happen? Why does the Jewish community let it happen? That is on the next episode of Getting Free.

[00:17:32] Leah Sarna: You’ve been listening to Getting Free, a podcast from the International Beit Din.

If you or someone you know is being denied a gett or facing extortion in the Jewish divorce process, reach out to the International Beit Din for Help. To learn more go to internationalbeitdin.org/gettingfree.

This episode was produced by Megan Hall and Nat Hardy

With sound design and mixing by Nat Hardy

Our theme song is  “Yehei Rava” by Yoni Stokar

Additional music in this episode by BlueDot Sessions

This podcast is generously supported by Micah Philanthropies and trustees Ann and Jeremy Pava, as well as the Meyer G and Ellen Goodstein Koplow Foundation

I’m  Rabbanit Leah Sarna. We’ll be back next week